Pondering

[msmcknittington]

Friends who have made 16th-century hanging gowns, I have questions.

I have these five yards or so of burgundy cotton velveteen, and I think it wants to be a hanging gown/loose gown. It will be a loose gown. I need an Elizabethan overcoat, and I think this will be a good, easy project. A get well project, if you will.

Has anyone used any of the patterns out of Patterns of Fashion? Looking at those, it looks like all the loose gowns are just widths of fabric pleated to an internal yoke, with armscyes and necks cut as required. The Sir Francis Verney gown just has ribbons as stay tapes, right? I'm thinking about basing it on one of the young girls' gowns, as the length on those are right for me, if not the bust. The Sir Francis Verney gown is 60-inches long at the back, and as I am 62-inches tall and narrow-shouldered, that's not going to work. Besides, I loveloveLOVE the round sleeves on the girl's gown on page 122 -- the one of cut velvet.

What I'm wondering is if there's any precedence for a separate shoulder yoke -- external, like a man's shirt -- with the body/skirts of the gown gathered/cartridge pleated to it. I seem to remember someone doing that in a dress diary, but hell if I can find it now.

So, internet-friends, have any resources or advice? Is it really as simple as cutting the right length or fabric and then pleating it to a yoke? What did you use for lining? Do I need a lining? Attached at the hem or free?

_{Y HELO THAR, help vampirism!}

If this doesn't work out, I'm going to make a fitted English gown with a full skirt.

Comments

[ciorstan.livejournal.com]

I know of one extant illustration of a ropa with a visible back yoke outside of Hunnisett's examples in Elizabeth R and her costuming book, and that is discussed here:

http://ciorstansdress.livejournal.com/8443.html

(Yes, I have a dress diary, and yes, I hardly ever use it-- my bad)

Otherwise, there seem to be two types of ropas in Arnold that are differentiated by sleeve/front opening. The ropas meant to close up from hem to the neck have a standard collar and sleeve tabs that are worked as one element. This means that the sleeve head is essentially a one-piece epaulet rather than a bunch of tabs folded over and let stick out on their own. The sleeves are either stitched into the armseye or tied securely in as a unit.

The ropas with no front and no front collar treatment are all tabbed on the shoulder. Most of them don't have tabs that go all the way around the armseye epaulet-wise like the other style.

The sole ropa that doesn't fall into these guidelines is the ropa in the matched set on pages 110 - 112. Now that I've had time to study all the portraits in Moda a Firenze and a couple of others elsewhere, it looks remarkably like the general style of clothing favored by Joanna of Austria as Duchess of Florence. So that leads me to believe that those two garments are heavily Habsburg-influenced... after all, there is at least one cousin of Joanna across Europe (I'm thinking of Catherine of Austria-Queen of Portugal, here http://ladysarafina.home.att.net/cathofaus.JPG)

The problem with wearing the Austrian ropa is the hilarious hairstyle. Leia Organa much?

[tattycat.livejournal.com]

Okay, seriously. Come clean. You have a 20billion gigabyte external backup brain, right? Right?

[ciorstan.livejournal.com]

I AM OLD.

Erm. I have a photographic memory, almost eidetic, and I can draw photo-real iffn I want.

So, simply put, I just remember where I saw the shit somewheres.

[msmcknittington.livejournal.com]

Ciorstan, really. Tatty and I have discussed this, and we're pretty sure you're an android. With massive costume history knowledge!

[ciorstan.livejournal.com]

Hrmph. If that were so, I wouldn't have to jump all over my living room in front of the damned Wii trying to get my missing waistline back.

Someone could just mail the part to me.

[msmcknittington.livejournal.com]

Uf da, fraulein! If that were the case, then I wish I were an android. Stupid Christmas belly.

[newgarb.livejournal.com]

bwahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!

It's funny, because it's true:)

[ciorstan.livejournal.com]

YOU ARE SO NOT HELPING.

And what is this talk amongst yourselves about moi, Sarah? I'm sort of trying to spin the damage control on the Freak of Nature image here...

;P

And hmphf.

[msmcknittington.livejournal.com]

It goes:

"Gosh! Ciorstan's smart! Where does she keep it all?"
"I know! She's got so much knowledge. She must have an extra brain."
"Do you think she's a robot?"
"Probably. But I would like to be Ciorstan when I grow up."

:D

[newgarb.livejournal.com]

Helping is not really my "thing":P

Hey, was that a flounce or a ruffle:)

[msmcknittington.livejournal.com]

Oh! I actually have the Vecellio drawing-thing saved on my computer. I knew I wasn't hallucinating the yoke.

Aren't the gowns that don't close all the way down the front all post-1600? Wait, never mind! I looked, and they're all post-1600. There goes that fledgling theory.

The problem with wearing the Austrian ropa is the hilarious hairstyle. Leia Organa much?

Pfft, I love it! I think it's faaaaabulous. Coming soon to a costume_snark post near you!

SCARY HABSBURG HAIR

[ciorstan.livejournal.com]

You're braver than I. So, I take it back, Austrian and Spanish both.

Exhibit 1 for the prosecution: Mary of Spain, who married the Holy Roman Emperor. Note the inbred Habsburg slack jaw and look of stupidity on page 33 of Moda a Firenze (can't find it online, alas):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Giuseppe_Arcimboldi_003.jpg

and
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Maria_of_Spain_1557.jpg

She was the mother of two remarkably pretty girls (SIXTEEN CHILDREN!), Anne of Austria (who married Philip of Spain) and Elisabeth of Austria, Queen of France.

Joanna herself, seems to have the consistent expression of OMG, don't laugh at my hair. She, however, was unhappily married to that brute, Cosimo II.

http://www.theflorentine.net/articles/article-view.asp?issuetocId=3896
can't find a color version. It is in Moda a Firenze, and the gold embroidery on her ropa and kirtle matches the gold of her hair.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Giuseppe_Arcimboldi_005.jpg

This is Joanna's sister, Katherine, who became the Queen of Poland and Duchess of Lithuania:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/be/KatarzynaHabs.jpg

and another sister, Barbara, who became the Duchess of Ferrara.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Francesco_Terzio_005.jpg

And as a side note, this is interesting:

http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/womeninpower/Womeninpower1540.htm

Re: SCARY HABSBURG HAIR

[msmcknittington.livejournal.com]

Yowza! I love that picture of Barbara, Duchess of Ferrara.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Francesco_Terzio_005.jpg

And that is the same color as my velvet. I wonder if I could find some gold silk satin to do guards? It wouldn't be the same as the embroidery, but I do not have the patience or skills for that much embroidery. Applique, maybe? Branching vines? Hmmm. Speculative noises.

And as a side note, this is interesting:

http://www.guide2womenleaders.com/womeninpower/Womeninpower1540.htm

That is super interesting! Especially the bits about all the female acting sheriffs in Denmark. If you scroll down to Ermegaard Andersdatter Bille, it looks like she's wearing a morion with her hair down and/or a veil. Interesting!

[ciorstan.livejournal.com]

And I just found another picture of a yoked ropa: page 110 of Moda a Firenze. It's Dono Doni's "Birth of the Virgin," and one of the attendants in the back is wearing one. The yoke is very short on the back shoulders, what we'd think of as shirt length rather than the longer one shown in Vecellio and Hunnisett.

I cannot find the painting online.

[msmcknittington.livejournal.com]

I kind of wish I had a copy of Moda a Firenze, but on the other hand, that's one damned expensive book. And at this point, if I had a hundred dollars to spend frivolously, I'd rather spend it on work clothes and fabric. And naturally, by "work clothes and fabric" I mean "yarn".

What do the shoulder/sleeves in the one in Moda a Firenze look like? What's the hem length?